Anarchists and communists clash in Athens — in pictures

by Jerome Roos on October 22, 2011

Post image for Anarchists and communists clash in Athens — in pictures

One man died after clashes broke out between anarchists, communists and riot police while Greek Parliament pushed through a key austerity vote.

Edit: according to hospital officials, the man who died was not hit by a stone. He did die from a heart attack, as we initially reported.

As Parliament prepared for a crucial vote on additional austerity measures — including the most drastic cuts and reforms so far —  renewed violence broke out on the streets of Athens. Without the vote, the Papandreou government would not have received the next installment of its EU/IMF bailout package and would have gone bankrupt next month.

In anticipation of the vote, a 48-hour strike brought the country to a complete standstill, while the single largest demonstration since the fall of the military junta sent hundreds of thousands of people into Syntagma Square and surrounding streets. For the first time, the communist party and union, KKE and PAME, joined the protests by blocking off Parliament so MPs would not be able to enter for the vote.

Carrying red flag sticks and wearing helmets, the unionists formed a human chain around Parliament. In the process, however, they ended up defending the state from the angry mob outside. Rather than turning their anger at the politicians, they protected them. Riot police were therefore happy to sit back and let the two sides fight each other. Dozens of people were injured in the clashes. One older man suffered a heart attack after being hit with a stone in the head. He died in hospital.

According to some rumors, police actually infiltrated the protests — either on the communist side or on the anarchist side, depending on whom you ask — to instigate the Leftist infighting. The truth, however, is that the Stalinist Left and the anti-authoritarian Left in Greece have a long history of antagonism. While this mutual distrust is understandable, the division itself remains a highly regrettable impediment to the creation of a united revolutionary front. Now, more than ever, we need to become and stay united.

Towards the end of the second video below, Stalinist union members can clearly be seen talking to police and telling them to attack anarchist protesters. There was a nauseating degree of collaboration between communists and police — a collaborative attempt to defend the last vestiges of the Greek state — that protesters were right to be angry about. But hurling stones and petrol bombs at fellow protesters? Following the death of three people in a bank arson last year and now the death of a communist union member, the time has come for the anarchists to revisit the use of escalating violence as a protest strategy.

For a massive photo gallery of the clashes, click here.

{ 48 comments… read them below or add one }

thematch October 22, 2011 at 02:20

I’m siding with the Anarchists here. The last thing any revolution needs are Stalinists, Maoists and other authoritarian “leftists”. Honestly, if I were there, I’d through molotovs at them too. The only useful function a Stalinist has in a revolution is as a human shield.

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Jérôme E. Roos October 22, 2011 at 18:42

Agreed with the anarchist part — I side with them too. But throwing molotovs at your own people is not gonna solve a thing.

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dave October 22, 2011 at 20:50

Jerome, as an anarchist I can tell you that we do not view Stalinists as “our own people.” And the problem predates Stalin, it goes back to Lenin and Trotsky and the latter’s “iron broom.”

While I too am interested in left unity and am currently engaged in such an effort, the differences between the libertarian and authoritarian lefts go to the heart of what proletarian revolution actually is, what its point is. Whatever potential for there is for cooperation is shattered when the authoritarians surround the legislature of a bourgeois government and defend it from democratic revolution. Agreeing with this is an renunciation of all anarchist principle. I have no idea what the Stalinists are thinking (assuming they are not Western intel), but it has no relation to social revolution such as anarchists (or Karl Marx for that matter) understand it. Unity implies a certain measure of common purpose, by protecting the Greek (and European) plutocracy, the communists have demonstrated that their goals are incompatible with ours.

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Jérôme E. Roos October 22, 2011 at 22:04

I wholeheartedly agree with your entire critique of the communists, but I strongly disagree with the “de-humanization” of the Other that is implicit in your statement. Also, you have to remember that of the hundreds of thousands of people who were assembled at Syntagma, the vast majority were not members of the communist unions. These people, including friends of mine who spent months on end camping out at Syntagma trying to build a united left, found themselves firebombed in the crossfire of the clashing forces. However deep your distrust and disgust of communists may be, endangering your fellow protesters like that is inexcusable.

For good order: I also consider myself a libertarian socialist, so this is not a disagreement on principle — it’s a disagreement on method.

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dave October 23, 2011 at 00:03

Jerome, I’m perplexed. How did I de-humanize the communists? Don’t begin to understand this. Nor do I understand the quotation marks around your choice of word. I argued that by protecting the criminal regime the communists had demonstrated that their goals are not our anarchist goals. It seems an attenuation to say that I’ve de-humanized them. Please explain.

This comment would be extremely long were I to list all the occasions when communists have betrayed working people as they are now in Athens. It would double again were I to chronicle the various genocidal attacks launched by communists again anarchists (and it is much older than Stalin). I thought I was being polite in my original comment, consciously so as I thought that should I express my contempt for Stalinism it might weaken my point. Yet you seem to think I said something objectionable. I invite you to explain, and others to weigh in on this dispute.

G October 22, 2011 at 12:14

There is also the possibility that the person died as a result of inhalation of tear gas.

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2011/10/20/53-year-old-demonstrator-dead/

these photos also show a slightly different view of the way the violence started: http://www.tsantiri.gr/koinonia-kinimata/dite-pos-archise-i-machi-pame-koukouloforon-fotoreportaz.html?iframe=true

It is worth pointing out that the initial altercation started between the “I won’t pay” movement- who are basically pacifists- and PAME. The anarchists only got involved later. Getting the chronology right shows that the KKE’s behaviour was less fighting back rioters, and more stopping anybody- given that the “I won’t pay” movement are about as far from rioters as you can get. That said, throwing molotovs at them wasn’t a good idea.

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Jérôme E. Roos October 22, 2011 at 18:39

Thanks G, we made a correction to our initial post.

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Julien Febvre October 22, 2011 at 12:23

This is an one sided awful report, a shame for your blog
“One older man suffered a heart attack after being hit with a stone in the head.”
Lies, lies, lies lies… The man who died DID NOT SUFFER ANY ATTACK. The doctors of the hospital confirmed that. This man died because of RESPIRATORY PROBLEMS caused by tear gas grenades thrown by the police.
Even the announcement of the communist party confirmed that this death was due to tear gas.

Also you say that a revolutionary movement is needed… even with the members of the Communist Party? May I remind you that the Greek Communist Party is a hard core Stalinist one, the only party in Europe that has NOT ACCEPTED GENOCIDES caused by communist regimes in the name of Leninism, the only party that believes a regime like Stalin could be a great alternative… do you think you can collaborate with them? Can you change their minds? No you can’t. They even refused to go to the assemblies on June. They called the movement of Indignados as “orchestrated by capitalist interests” and provide other ridiculous conspiracy theories to counter those who disagree with them by slapping them in the head as “fascists!”

Mind also that the far right party LAOS has congratulated the Communist Party for “doing everything possible to maintain law and order”

So finally, who is gonna save us from the gulags and concentration camps if these guys will get to power? If this is not what we want then we have no other choice but to reveal their lies and isolate them from the liberation movements.

And please,

Check my report also and stop writing biased articles
http://eagainst.com/articles/greece-two-day-general-strike/

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Jérôme E. Roos October 22, 2011 at 18:39

Thanks for your reply, we made a correction to the initial report — our initial sources were wrong. Look back at all the reporting we’ve done on Greece, especially the pieces I wrote when I was on Syntagma and in Exarchia. You will find that our only bias is with the Greek people who are fighting for a better future. Don’t worry, we don’t have any illusions whatsoever about KKE/PAME.

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Julien Febvre October 22, 2011 at 21:32

“we made a correction to the initial report”
No you didn’t. You state “One older man suffered a heart attack after being hit with a stone in the head. He died in hospital.” The man who died in the hospital did not suffer any wound. The reasons of death was heart attack caused probably by large tear gas breathings. But it is confirmed that he did not suffer any attack by stone or other object

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Jérôme E. Roos October 22, 2011 at 22:00

Look at the start of the article :)

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abolition October 22, 2011 at 12:25

a) the 53-year-old was not hit by a stone, he had not wounds on his body whatsoever, this is certified by the doctors

b) throwing molotof bombs to protesters is horrible on behalf of the anarchists, but if they dont throw stones… how are they supposed to respond to the fascism of the stalinists? surely the anarchists should reconsider the forms of violence they use and work more on the structural change of the society than on revenging the cops or the stalinists, but the stalinists on the 20th attacked protesters in other cities apart fom Athens, and they did this without provocation. Protesters wanted to approach government buildings, the stalinists would not allow it (!!!), and they abused and assualted the protesters. Stalistst need to be repelled somehow.

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Jérôme E. Roos October 22, 2011 at 18:32

Thanks for notifying, we made a correction to the initial post, which was based on wrong sources!

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Sifis (from Greece) October 22, 2011 at 12:27

The worked did not die from no stone or hit, he probably did not even participate in the clashes between protesters. As it was finally concluded by the doctors, the dead worker did not suffer from any kind of hit on his body. He died from heart attack that was most probable coused by inhailing tear gas thrown from the police after the clashes between protesters trying to evacuate once again Syntagma square.
The cause of death of the unlucky man was chaned on purpose by the media during the protest so that the people lose their anger against parliament. Now all media admit that they were wrong the first hours of the notice and that the man died from heart attack most probable due to tear gas. The toxicological exams will confirm the causes of death in about 15 days.
Sadly, the stalinists KKE , that is the main responsible of what happened in 20th of October, are still spreading the rummors that the man died from the clashes and put the blame on the anarchists instead of the state (that they defend all these years)…

with all the respect,

a felow comrade from greece

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Jérôme E. Roos October 22, 2011 at 18:32

Thanks Sifis, we made a correction to our initial report, which was based on wrong sources!

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johannes ewig October 22, 2011 at 13:02

downfall, all over. but do we have an idea what we want, besides what we don’t want? can we put all our strenght, intelligence, strategic thinking, compassion and love to the vision of the world we want to live in? we need models for a new society, models that offer answers to all core areas of human life on earth. water. food. energy. community. dezentralized systems that let us regain our power.

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Matthew October 22, 2011 at 14:12

Excellent article, and excellent site

Matthew

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D to the Anghiz October 22, 2011 at 14:22

This Looks Like Textbook Divide and Conquer, Shaken not Stirred with a Little CorpoMEdia Spin to it… But Wait I don’t get It.. The Stalinists Made a BArricade so the POliticians Couldn’t get in And Vote, But they Ended up Protecting the Politicians so the Police didn’t have to do Anything.. Ehrmmm, SO what? The POliticians just took the Backdoor Entrance and no one Noticed?? Then the Anarchists started to do What they ofcourse ALWAYS do, namely resort to Gross Violence, Cause that’s MAinly what ANarchism’s about Right!? Against the Stalinists…… Wait… DId you say Stalinists?? I thought Stalinism Died in the gULAG? So They are for Communism as Implemented and DEmonstrated by STalin….?? They Are for Complete Centralization of Power, Complete Subjugation to a One party Totalitarian Regime, that USes Secret Police, Intimidation, and Propaganda as a viable alternative Political system? Ehrrm so They are FOR the Current Situation? Well, So THAT’s why they were defending the Parliament Probably! HAha! WOW, Either Greek Political Science Books are written by Monkeys, or Something in the Way the Situation is Reported Doesn’t COmpletely match up… Good Luck Greece, getting RID of that G0ldm@n $@ch$ GOON Pops ‘The BANKPuppet’hAndreou! Peace

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dim October 22, 2011 at 15:44

The man did not die because he was hit.He died from a heart attack.Please correct your post.

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Jérôme E. Roos October 22, 2011 at 18:29

Done.

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XaViER October 22, 2011 at 20:51

“Fellow protesters”? You should visit Poland to see what those “fellow protesters” did to all leftists (anarchists, socialists etc). here when they were in power. Come here and say that stalinsts are “fellow protesters” and you will be in a big trouble among working class people.

I wouldn’t wish the same fate on potential Greek revolution.

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Jérôme E. Roos October 22, 2011 at 22:06

I wholeheartedly agree with your critique of the communists, but you have to remember that of the hundreds of thousands of people who were assembled at Syntagma, the vast majority were not members of the communist unions. These people, including friends of mine who spent months on end camping out at Syntagma trying to build a united left, found themselves firebombed in the crossfire of the clashing forces. However deep your distrust and disgust of communists may be, endangering your fellow protesters like that is inexcusable.

For good order: I also consider myself a libertarian socialist, so this is not a disagreement on principle — it’s a disagreement on method.

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XaViER October 23, 2011 at 10:47

But why blame anarchists? Stalinists were blocking a way to a Syntagma, excluding other leftists groups (not only anarchsists). They were beating unarmed people near Hotel Grand Bretagne.

Does this woman look like “dangerous black-blocker?”
http://db3.stb.s-msn.com/i/95/98DCFBCD7D87B42CA748F6AFA7C24F.jpg

But anarchists are not people who let stalinists (or cops, or others) beat them without proper response.

Look please at this report (not written by anarchist):
http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/athens-greece-riots-protests-anarchy-communists-syntagma-square-day-two

“. They smashed through the crowd – anarchist, democrat, bystander, journalist, whatever; they were swinging at us.”

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Jérôme E. Roos October 23, 2011 at 21:57

When did I blame the anarchists Xavier? Only thing I said is that they should re-consider their violent tactics. I don’t think that’s a very harsh or unfair suggestion. I’m all for the left-libertarian revolution, but I don’t see how putting people on fire is going to help that cause.

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Joris October 22, 2011 at 22:04

Thanks Jerome, for once again clarifying and giving an in-depth analysis of a situation that featured in the worldnews only momentarily before being thrown at the garbage heap of history. And thanks for the people correcting and participating, I wish every news medium would be as interactive as this one. Keep up the good work!

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Jérôme E. Roos October 22, 2011 at 22:17

Thanks bro. And you’re right, thanks to everyone here for the corrections, feedback and discussion — it’s much appreciated!

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dave October 23, 2011 at 06:31

Jerome, lots to chew on here. Ironically, I’ve been working on something like this with a Leninist (believe it or not) which has become sidetracked because of his engagement with the teachers’ strike in the UK, and my engagement with OccupySeattle.

These issues go directly to the heart of the idea of revolution: What is it? What is to be done (to borrow a phrase)? How is it to be effected? What are its goals? What is the endgame? What will the new order be like and how will it differ from the old? The answers to these questions determine who is friend and who is foe.

As to methods, violence is always regrettable but as you acknowledge it may sometimes be necessary. And, to loosely paraphrase Engels, revolution is an us-versus-them, winner-take-all affair. When the communists decided to use force to surround the Greek Parliamen to protect the gangsters therein, they committed an act of violence against the Greek people. Hence I will not condemn the violence, however ill-advised and ineffective, directed against the communists. My comments above were in relation specifically to the molotoving of the communists. It was my impression that the violence originating with anarchists (or cops thus disguised) was directed at those who encircled the legislative building, and that the others were innocent bystanders. However, if the violence originating from the anarchist camp was directed at the non-communist protesters (which would be profoundly suspicious), then I will condemn it.

However, again paraphrasing Engels, and in the case of Greece I believe we are in agreement that the Greek people MUST overthrow their government if they are to survive as a free and independent people with a decent standard of living, revolution is the mother of all authoritarian acts. It is the forcible routing of one class by another. It is us versus them, I don’t believe there’s any escaping it. And when the communists (if they really are communists) defended the government, from an anarchist point of view, they became them. If social revolution is defined as direct, egalitarian democracy in all things, the coming to power of we-the-people, then the communists demonstrated they are inimical to that revolution.

However, I appreciate your comments. If you are interested in the left unity effort then send me an email. The blog is under construction (as they say), but I’ll send you a link.

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dave October 23, 2011 at 06:37

@Xavier, I’m not sure whether you are refering to ’45-’48, or ’67, or Solidarnosc. I would be interested in hearing more.

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XaViER October 23, 2011 at 10:53

I’m refering to whole period, but especially to “the first”, as we call it here, Solidarnosc movement and a martial law they introduced, shooting at and killing miners and other workers who started a strike after introducing the martial law. After this, whole worker’s movement has been destroyed, and we are now all in a pity position.

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dave October 25, 2011 at 07:21

You will have to forgive us Xavier cuz the info we in the West have gotten about recent Polish history has been filtered through Washington, London and Tel Aviv. Most of the stuff on Solidarnosc available in English was written by Western spies masquerading as journalists (I think you know to whom I refer).

I should have been more specific: There was a purge of Russian-appointed Stalinists in ’67 as I understand it. In your opinion, was the crushing of Solidarnosc directed from the Kremlin, or were the counterrevolutionaries native Polish Stalinists?

This may be a little off topic for this page and I don’t wish to misuse Jerome’s excellent website, so you can contact me directly if you prefer. metrobusman@yahoo.com. I’d also like to ask you about Jolanta Brzeska

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Dim Rapidis October 23, 2011 at 09:56

Hello guys,

It’s not solely an issue of critisizing communism, but mainly it’s a question of how riots against austerity politics has perplexed Greek citizens & the way they want to react.. Lately we have completely lost our vision & we are entangled in & bound to a vicious cyrcle of self-harming instead of targeting corrupted politicians & unfair political decisions.. Clashes between citizens & cops, but also between citizens themselves is a a reflection of the general feeling about the future of Greece & the fate of its citizens..

Civil society & the people should re-estimate the way of reacting against austerity politics & social indignation & bring up creative means of resisting..There are many ways but to achieve this people should first act as a big & united group irregardless of social class, professional background etc..

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Def October 23, 2011 at 14:38

Hello,

As a Leninist (albeit one with libertarian sympathies) I’m shocked by the disgraceful behaviour of the KKE. SHAME on them for betraying the workers. I think the Anarchists who threw petrol bombs at them took it a step too far, the last thing we need is bloodshed between protesters, but that was the fault of an individual or a small group. The KKE and PAME’s fault lies with the policy makers and the members foolish enough to follow them. A microcosm of the Barcelona May Days would be very damaging to the worker’s cause and exposes the treachery of the KKE, which is clearly in the pocket of the bourgeoisis.

What a disgusting little affair, I hope the Greek workers can find a way to move past it.

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Def October 23, 2011 at 18:38

In defence of some of the Greek Marxists however, the EEK did side with the people against the state. Their website says they advocate Libertarian Communism (unless my google translate is wrong). They can be seen in picture 105. I think the throwing of molotov cocktails at the KKE men is unjustifiable though, near them maybe, but setting people on fire is a step too far for me.

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Aus10 October 23, 2011 at 19:29

The “anarchists” were foolish for attacking the communists. And this blog is foolish for endorsing their actions. The KKE played a central role in helping Greece overcome dictatorship and ushering in a parliamentary democracy. They are one of the few principled mass based communist parties left in the West. Labeling them Stalinist, because they are organized and rooted in the working-class is an ad hominem attack that has nothing to do with the current debate.

The Greek austerity measures will not be driven back by attacking buildings or members of the KKE. Only unity and protracted class struggle can reverse the damage that has been done. Unfortunately, there are many people who prefer dis-organization and violence against workers.

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XaViER October 23, 2011 at 22:31

And don’t think that I’m a macho insurectionst type. In fact I take a critical look at this insurectionist movement. I’m anarchosyndicalist, working class organizer than riot and molotov-lover. But I think that if I see stalinist thugs beating people near me I can use force to stop them. Especially if they charge with clubs at me.

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XaViER October 23, 2011 at 22:38

And don’t think that I’m a macho insurectionist type. In fact I’m very critical towards insurections movement, and prefer anarchosydicalist working class organizing than riots and throwing molotovs. But I think that I can use a force if I see stalinst thugst beating people around me, and especially if they are running towards me armed with clubs and who knows what else. If I have molotov I use this. I don’t like to end like him: http://athens.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/1vmcesm.jpg

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mimi tango October 24, 2011 at 16:54

out troika,fmi,bce, i live in argentina,i hate three demons of capital ,in buenos aires in 2001 i lived what greece lived in 2011,the horror,of hell economics ,not greeks,greeks have very light,i want greece win troika…i am stay here for yours my friends

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calum October 25, 2011 at 17:40

All Communists Are Bastards. lol. molotovs are never necessary, should not be a tool in a revolutionaries arsenal unless there is a similar or higher level of weapon being used against them. stalinists suck. can anyone tell me what the logic was behind their actions? this is not a rhetorical question, how do they justify themselves?

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Bruno October 25, 2011 at 18:49

Jerome, would you say the same about the molotovs landing on riot police?
Those bombs where made for the police, but the stalinists decided to stand by their side and charge at the rest of protesters. It isn’t more than a tiny step in logic for that bomb to land on a stalinist. You say anarchists should reconsider their violent tactics, even though it was the PAME members that were prepared and organized for violence. Neither side is innocent, but I’d rather be guilty like the anarchists than guilty like the stalinists.
No sane person stands there waiting to be beaten. To use your fallacy.

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Orphée Delarue October 28, 2011 at 00:35

Please do not substitute real anarchists by police and military in anarchist appearence with — who hide among them

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Stefania November 2, 2011 at 11:12

I am really sorry but anarchy has never been or will be the sollution to any of our socio-political problems. Greek people should be united and try to stand up to the untrusted system and a goverment that destroyed not only our present economy but repealed any progression to come in the future. Tha anarchists all these years have been ruining every peaceful protest or celebration and let me take it even further and question the authenticity of this party as many of the times it seems that they are nothing more than ‘gears’ in the machine of the system, provocating acts of violence as they were working on behalf of the riot police…

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Zultra October 5, 2012 at 16:42

Punch of sissy students, you don’t know the real meaning of fighting.

As soon as Nationalists like Golden Dawn come after you, you hide and cry to someone, COWARDS.

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Joana D'Arc March 12, 2013 at 14:49

I’m trying to understand what happened. The communists were closing the Parliament to avoid MPs to vote the measures, right? Can someone explain me why this action turned into an attack against the other protesters, like they were actually defending the State? What happened exactly that anarchists understood the communists were acting just like the police? This text doesn’t explain it. It’s like, suddenly, stalinists were turned into the State. Didn’t the communists try to make themselves clear about their intention? I don’t get it. And I’m pretty sure there wasn’t only anarchists and communists at the protest. What about the other protesters? Should we turn a whole fight of everyone against capitalism into a battle between ideological positions? Where’s comprehension? What about tolerance? Let us unite! If the stalinists really sided the police, it’s absurd! But this question should be solved with no violence. After all, we have to be realistic: it would be easier and extremely more effective. While your are throwing stones in each other, pigs are voting against all of us.

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Jérôme E. Roos October 23, 2011 at 00:51

Dear Dave, I’m sorry if my overtly succinct comment confused or offended you, it was not intended to do that. I put dehumanization in quotation marks because I considered the word to be too harsh an accusation given what you said, but there is an essence in the word that I consider relevant. I guess what I meant to say is that, as people, when we start speaking in terms of us vs. them, we tend to forget that the essence of the Other is essentially similar to ours: at the end of the day, we are all human beings. But what resounded from your words when you said “they are not our people”, is that you saw these guys firstly as communists and only secondarily as human beings. So what you see (please correct me if I’m wrong) is the embodiment of a pure evil (state communism) that you subsequently project onto the person.

This is the process by which people throughout history have legitimized the use of violence against their fellow human beings. As I said, I put “dehumanization” in quotation marks because I don’t believe you are legitimizing violence or necessarily view communists as beasts. What I do believe, however, is that you commit a mistake when you say “they are not our people”. The point being that the us (anarchists) vs. them (communists) overwhelms the sensation of us, the people. In the end, they are our people, even if their ideas are profoundly misguided, dangerous and counterrevolutionary.

That having been said, I want to emphasize one more time that there is absolutely no need to delve into the brutalities that have been committed by communists, both in past and present times. As I said, I strongly sympathize with anarchist philosophy, although I prefer to call myself a libertarian socialist (which is basically the same thing, as you know). The point here is not to drive a wedge between myself and my countless anarchist friends and readers. The point is neither to defend a bunch of lousy communists for whom I feel a profound sense of contempt myself. The point, rather, is to denounce the extreme violence that is being used against other protesters — against other people — whether they be communist or not.

I am not a hopelessly naive “peace-and-love” hippie anarchist. I do believe that political violence, however much I abhor it, has its role to play in the revolutionary process, whether in Egypt or in Greece. But when you start legitimizing the firebombing of fellow protesters on the basis of an us vs. them distinction rooted in ideological differences, I think we are a far cry from being true revolutionaries. Communists have disgusting ideas. But during the 48 hour strike, they were not the greatest impediment to the revolutionary process. The greatest impediment were still the politicians, bankers and policemen protecting the status quo. If other protesters ended up protecting the status quo, so be it, let them. There are other ways to express your opinion and fight their stupidity than firebombing them.

I hope this clarifies my position. I’m sorry if I perplexed you with my previous statement (I didn’t have time to explain, perhaps I shouldn’t have posted at all). Thanks for your interest and thanks also for sharing your perspective, it’s much appreciated.

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XaViER October 23, 2011 at 12:29

We should return to the particular situation here. When this petrol bomb, about which we are talking about, was thrown? Look at this video below. It was thrown after armed stalinst thugs started to charge at people. It was clearly self-defense situation for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC9tmm_XNOc

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Jérôme E. Roos October 23, 2011 at 21:59

Xavier, please. No sane person puts other people on fire in self defense.

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XaViER October 23, 2011 at 22:26

It depends. I can imagine even that I could shoot at someone in self defense.

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dave October 25, 2011 at 07:00

Jerome, Even if those people are brandishing clubs and conducting an organized, military charge against you?

This is a thorny subject, and one which can’t be addressed adequately here, but may I humbly suggest Ward Churchill’s “The Pathology of Pacifism.” Also here is a brief but excellent lecture on the subject: http://wearemany.org/a/2010/07/is-violence-necessary-to-change-society. And, if you will indulge me, I wrote this about anarchist political violence: http://www.countercurrents.org/fryett030411.htm

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